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It’s a blistery winter night in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
SWAT operator Gary McDougall is sitting in waist high snow right now. He’s contemplating his career decisions.
As he knows there’s negotiators sitting warm and cozy, drinking coffee in a trailer.
It’s time we learned Gary’s transition from SWAT operator to negotiator and hear about his storied career.
It’s time for another episode of The Crisis Cop Podcast on The 2GuysTalking Podcast Network via WhatCopsWatch.Com…
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The Detailed Shownotes for This Episode of The Crisis Cop Podcast:
Looking for the detailed links, information and references used inside this episode? Read on below to find them all and remember to reach out to ask if there’s something else you’d like to see from this episode!
Timestamps for This Episode of The Crisis Cop Podcast:
00:00 William “Billy the Kid” Kidd, a founding member of San Francisco’s first crisis negotiation team in 1974, shares his story on the Crisis Cop Podcast.
08:52 We learned from other agencies’ successful handling of incidents, benefiting from their experiences in unexpected situations.
14:45 They strongly opposed using third-party intermediaries, which often backfired during incidents.
16:33 Debriefs grew in popularity for incident discussions, focusing on context, actions, and outcomes. Active listening was underutilized until the late ’80s.
25:01 NYPD’s approach in the 60s-80s, focusing on communication over confrontation, was revolutionary in handling challenging incidents.
31:55 Botched robbery at Petrini Plaza, San Francisco led to a hostage situation and standoff with Law SF agents.
33:22 In 1979, a mentally ill man caused an incident in a San Francisco high-rise.
42:47 A significant incident involving an employee’s death highlighted the importance of awareness and learning from others’ experiences, influencing the speaker’s outlook on life and career.
48:03 Experience with negotiation teams has diminished the drama and entertainment for me, but a positive aspect is the involvement of behavioral science professionals in California, who provide psychological support and debriefings for negotiators, improving outcomes over time.
53:01 Understanding diverse backgrounds and experiences is crucial. Selection processes often include test scenarios to evaluate one’s ability to engage and communicate effectively.
57:59 Emphasizes the importance of empathy and interpersonal skills in navigating chaos. If empathy isn’t your strength, consider other paths.
01:02:01 The funniest incident involved daily walk-ins for unlikely-to-be-prosecuted misdemeanor cases in a high-stress investigative unit.
01:06:47 Chief’s ceremony honored the negotiation team with gratitude, comments, and commemorative challenge coins for their 50th anniversary, attended by negotiators and affiliates with photos taken.
01:11:53 Involved in crisis negotiator training since the late ’70s, currently instructing a state course on Domestic Violence for Crisis Negotiators since 2000, training over 1,000 negotiators.
01:19:00 Grateful to Bill for sharing his valuable experience; looking forward to more insights.
Questions Answers Inside This Episode of Cops and Robbers Talk:
- Bill Kidd describes the resistance to crisis negotiation concepts in the early days. Why do you think many law enforcement officers were reluctant to embrace crisis negotiation teams when they were first established?
- The episode mentions that San Francisco’s crisis negotiation team was one of the first in the country after NYPD. How did learning from other agencies’ experiences help shape the early approach of SFPD’s team?
- Active listening skills are now a key part of crisis negotiation. According to Bill Kidd, these weren’t widely adopted until the late 1980s. How do you think the introduction of active listening changed the outcomes and processes of negotiations?
- The episode covers the importance of empathy in negotiation. In your opinion, can empathy be taught, or is it a quality that negotiators naturally possess?
- Pat and Bill discuss legacy, particularly the importance of knowing the history of a negotiation team. Why is understanding the origins and evolution of a team valuable for current and future negotiators?
- One key point was the collaboration between negotiation and SWAT/tactical teams. What are the potential challenges and benefits of joint trainings and operations between these two units?
- Bill recounts incidents that were both successful and tragic. How did these experiences influence changes in training, policy, or mindset within the San Francisco Police Department?
- Stress and coping mechanisms for negotiators are addressed in the latter part of the episode. What supports or strategies do you think are most effective in helping crisis negotiators manage the emotional toll of their work?
- Bill talks about learning from failed or problematic strategies, such as using sedatives in beer or relying on third-party intermediaries. How has transparency about mistakes and failures shaped professional growth in this field?
- Looking at Bill Kidd’s long career, what qualities or habits do you think have allowed him to have lasting impact—not just in San Francisco, but in the broader crisis negotiation community?
Links from this Episode:
— Get All of Pat’s Books via Amazon Now!
– Crisis Cops: The Evolution of Crisis Negotiation in America
– Crisis Cop 2: More Stories from the Front Lines of Crisis Negotiation
– Calming the Chaos: My Life as a Crisis Negotiator in the St. Louis Area
- 2GuysTalking Podcast Network
- Link to the Network’s homepage to provide listeners with more background.
- 2GuysTalking Podcast Network
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The Host of this Program:
Pat Doering
Pat Doering began his career as a police officer in 1996 and has served as a Police Hostage Negotiator since 2004. He has received formal negotiation training from the FBI, the London Metropolitan Police (Scotland Yard), and the Negotiation Program at Harvard University. As a graduate of the FBI National Academy (Class 248), Pat continues to provide guidance, formal training, and leadership mentoring worldwide.
In 2024, Pat retired from his law enforcement career but remains dedicated to fostering the next generation of Crisis Negotiators. He conducts live, on-site training events and online workshops designed to sharpen the skills of those interested in crisis negotiation.
“My goal is to share the knowledge and experience I’ve gained throughout my career in high-stakes situations. My speeches will help you become a better communicator and listener. I am committed to teaching and training the future of crisis negotiations.”
— Pat Doering on Facebook
— Pat Doering on LinkedIn
— Pat Doering on Instagram
— Crisis Cop on the Web
— Crisis Cop on YouTube
The Guest Featured Inside this Program:
William Kidd, aka Billy The Kidd:
William Kidd, a pioneering crisis negotiator from San Francisco, CA, has dedicated over three decades to resolving high-stakes conflicts and saving lives. As one of the early architects of modern hostage negotiation tactics, Kidd helped shape national protocols through his work with law enforcement and federal agencies. Known for his calm demeanor, strategic thinking, and deep empathy, Kidd has trained hundreds of negotiators across the country. His legacy includes groundbreaking contributions to negotiation psychology, interagency collaboration, and the humane resolution of volatile incidents.
The Producer of this Program:
Mike Wilkerson:
Mike Wilkerson Is the PodFather of St. Louis, and has been hosting, producing, concepting and enhancing podcasts since 2005. As a professional content creator, Mike has been making and documenting every mistake in the Podcasting industry so you won’t have to when you’re ready to begin. With thousands of of hours of business, marketing and life experience behind and in front of the mic and keyboard, he has created a vibrant and always-growing business tapestry via The 2GuysTalking Podcast Network.
As a perpetual student, Mike continues to foster interests in Crisis Negotiator Training, Firearms Instruction and helping people to find the next step in their career with an active interest in hunting light bulb moments.
— Mike Wilkerson on Facebook
— Mike Wilkerson on LinkedIn
— Mike Wilkerson on X
— Mike Wilkerson on Instagram
— 2GuysTalking on LinkedIn
— 2GuysTalking on YouTube
